tiyire: (Default)
[personal profile] tiyire
Some words about OTW Board Approves Meta Hosting on the AO3: I´m happy with the result, but not with the way it was announced. There should have been better internal preparation, especially more time for Comms/Support (*sends cake*), and I also think the announcement could have been much clearer. I would have appreciated a clearer "we want to have this one day, but please don´t start uploading all your meta right now!" and a commitment to have media tickyboxes soon so meta (fandom nonfiction) is easier to filter out. It´ll be better next time.

I was relieved that the meta discussion doesn´t directly involve Fanlore when our image policy came up again. Some of the points that were brought up in various places are exaggerated or in some cases outdated (everybody who was involved with the committee side of the 2010 discussion has left) or untrue, but I´m aware that there are problems with the lax way our image policy is often handled on Fanlore, unless somebody complains. I´d like to address this and work on better guidelines, but Wiki currently doesn´t have the resources to do this at all. I know it´s hard to hear requests for patience again and again, but there´s currently nothing we can do. I could expand on the reasons why, and once we have some time to breathe I´m looking forward to discussing how we can improve how Fanlore deals with fanart. (That´s a lie, I´m not at all looking forward to it because it will most likely be exhausting, but it´s necessary, and hopefully it will be productive.)

We have so many exciting projects planned. Some that are necessary (policies), some that we just want (forum), several that are somewhere in between. We´ll do the necessary ones first, and originally I then wanted to ask for input what we should do next, but I´m not sure if we´ll have time for that this year. The next, then :) One step after the other, and we´ll be fine.

Date: 2013-02-23 05:36 pm (UTC)
aethel: (buddy breathing [by zoetrope])
From: [personal profile] aethel
I looked at the announcement and was just happy they didn't try to tell people to post their meta to Fanlore. Then I logged off and read books made out of paper and didn't touch the internet for several days. Wank-free bliss!

I certainly don't look forward to a public discussion about Fanlore's image policy. Some people will always disagree with the basic fair use premise (and how you make fair use of an image!), and talking about it will only alienate more of them. But it might help to make it clearer that people can report specific images as infringing. The current image policy assumes that only the artist in question would ever complain, so there's no general provision for reporting infringing content. I know the identity protection policy prefers the person affected to report if there's a problem, but copyright infringement/fair use is something that can be judged independently (unless it's marked as "uploaded with permission" and the copyright holder says they didn't give it).

A help/policy page that gives examples of fair use and recommends image size/resolution would be a good thing. This "use your best judgment" business just shows people have very different judgments. And maybe clarify which concerns relate to which type of image -- fanart is the one people get upset about, but we also have photographs, screencaps, and fannish or nonfannish promotional images. Resizing screencaps of websites makes them unreadable. I don't think we have any set policy about photographs of fans, probably because people haven't started uploading them yet.

I was going to do more writing about fanart on Fanlore in 2013 as a free agent, unencumbered by official status, but then I got distracted by tag wrangling and psychic wolves....

It seems OTW has a problem with making promises it can't keep. I think Support or Abuse actually gets training in how to not do this; it would be good if they shared their wisdom with the Board.

Date: 2013-02-23 06:42 pm (UTC)
caput_mortuum: (Default)
From: [personal profile] caput_mortuum
As a fanartist, my main concerns are:

1) why aren't artists notified if their work is being hosted? Nobody is going to look for infringement if they don't even know about fanlore.
2) how is it fair use if the images don't illustrate anything particular in the article and it's just whole galleries of, say, Kirk/Spock images. You don't need 100 images to explain the ship.
3) if you offer smudging out names instead of taking content down, what about the concerns regarding re-distribution of now unsigned files?
4) what about credit? Most of the images I've seen are very, very poorly credited, hardly linked back (or even linked to the wrong journals) and your database doesn't even allow the storage of a source link.
5) why did you even start allowing the hosting of images in grand style before having the policy discussion? shouldn't it be one step after the other?
6) do you realize that if you make suggestions for resizing/resolution you encourage people to edit images, which is very much something no fanartist wants done to their work and often brought up as an issue on tumblr etc?

I just don't understand why you treat fanart so differently to the other works like fic and vids, which are linked to the places they were posted. It just looks like an utter lack of respect. How does any of this go with the OTW's mission statement of respecting fannish culture? You realize that there are fandoms in which artists will take down their work as soon as people re-host without permission?
The tone of annoyance I read here about those 'upset people' who ruin your fun projects is very upsetting to me in turn. I mean I realize that this is just annoying wank to you but for me fanlore's policy raises the question of whether I'm even comfortable in fandom.

I am very alarmed that you have no policy about images of fans, I hope I don't have to explain to you why this is an issue. You really need to put a stop the further upload of images before you have sorted these questions out.

Date: 2013-02-23 07:16 pm (UTC)
aethel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] aethel
**please note that I am a Fanlore user, but not on the Wiki Committee any more and have no official standing. I am also not a lawyer**

resized images is the visual equivalent of quoting. this is how you do fair use of an image [ETA: commentary is needed also, I mean. the image is fair use if it illustrates a point].

most of the fanart on Fanlore is scanned images of zines that are now out of print, NOT fanart already digitized and available elsewhere on the web.

the policy says credit should be given. if the art is online, there should be a link back to the original version. if individual images don't have credit attached, that is not the fault of the policy.

this template should be added to every single image uploaded. it contains a field for adding a URL to the original image if online.

the wiki software (third party software not created by OTW) has an upload function that was available when the wiki was launched in 2008 by people who subsequently left the OTW. The image policy was finalized in 2010, and we can't go back in time and fix how this was handled. we now have both an image policy and images on the wiki.

we also have an identity protection policy that could be applied if people start uploading fan photos. it currently doesn't mention photos explicitly because the issue has never come up.

I have witnessed multiple conversations where people said Fanlore shouldn't follow fair use. But in fact Fanlore as a project of the OTW is REQUIRED to follow fair use. a more useful discussion is whether existing images comply with fair use and how we can get people to be more careful when they upload images.
Edited Date: 2013-02-23 07:28 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-23 07:53 pm (UTC)
caput_mortuum: (Default)
From: [personal profile] caput_mortuum
Thanks for the link to the template! I that case I agree that it's an issue of execution because the (non zine) image samples I clicked on had no source link. I'm not trying to argue that the Wiki should not adhere to fair use (because that is what the OTW is based on), I'm just not sure about whether the way it's being done qualifies as such. I still have my qualms about the different way creators in fandom are being treated here when there's a fairly universal etiquette involved (noone would just start re-hosting complete fics). Also, you can ask an artists before you create a crop of their work, I can only repeat that editing of images is not welcome and most artists provide previews or thumbnails that can be used more freely. Also of course it doesn't need to be said that currently none of the images are even resized for equivalent of quoting, they all have the original resolution (and I've seen a lot of pictures from the web.)
Also I don't think you should wait until people upload photos and then leave it to the depicted people to find them or not and then protest or not. It's just not nice.
Thanks for the speedy answer! :)

[edit: Okay, I've looked at the database and it seems like my crop of unsourced images were a bad sample, it seems to be done better now!]
Edited Date: 2013-02-23 08:07 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-27 05:22 pm (UTC)
morgandawn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morgandawn
On a side note: I was surprised (although I shouldn't be as the world is a mighty big and diverse place) that many non-US fans* are unfamiliar with the concept of fair use as it is not a universal right in all countries. Copyright law is local and in the US fair use goes a long way to supporting education and expression. Here is a recent example of writers having to pay for each word of Winston Churchill they quoted: http://andrewdsmith.wordpress.com/2013/01/20/who-owns-the-words-that-come-out-of-your-mouth/

So of course, fannish culture aside, some fans don't grok how important fair use is to us as individuals and as fans. And this may explain why they do not support its use.

*And to be fair, some US fans don't understand their fair use rights - one of the many reasons the OTW was founded.
Edited (forgot the US fans) Date: 2013-02-27 07:05 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-27 07:08 pm (UTC)
astridv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] astridv
I think fair use is important. I support fair use. What I (and others) are saying is that a lot of what's been going on at fanlore is not fair use.

On top of that, I think that the same courtesy that fandom grants fic writers should be extended to artists. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Date: 2013-02-27 07:50 pm (UTC)
morgandawn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morgandawn
Because fair use is determined on a case by case basis, I do expect there will be disagreement as to how it is being implemented for a particular image. The best way to address this is to look at the specific image and discuss. Wikis are uniquely set up to do this: anyone can create an account, go to the image talk page and start discussing.

Keep in mind there are two aspects to fair use - how ‘it’ is being used by Fanlore or AO3 or yours or my blog as well as whether the art itself is a fair use of the underling copyright (whether the fan art is itself infringing). Discussing the one while ignoring the other can create cognitive dissonance and runs the risk of inconsistent standards. On that second note, I read an alarming (for fan artists) article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/opinion/sunday/fair-use-art-swiss-cheese-and-me.html?_r=0 Let's hope that the courts don't go that way because it could have a chilling effect on fan artists who do gif sets on tumblr or photo-manips. As well as anyone who reblogs said gif sets or manips. One of the many reasons why fans need to exercise their fair use muscles – both in the commercial as well as the fandom space.

Not certain what kind of courtesy you're referring - what are fan artists not being given that fan writers are being given? Or rather, what is missing? For fan art, I see 2 elements: limited ‘use’ in the form of low res images along with credit - although Fanlore could really use help double checking that credit has been added to the image upload pages. The more fans that volunteer the faster it will get done.

Date: 2013-02-27 08:52 pm (UTC)
astridv: (Natasha by pentapus)
From: [personal profile] astridv
Not certain what kind of courtesy you're referring - what are fan artists not being given that fan writers are being given?

One does not archive other people's fic without asking for permission. It's not done. (And the few times someone tries it there's a public outcry, enough to make them take it down asap.) I ran an archive. We went to great lengths to get permission for every single story and in those cases where we couldn't contact the writer, we didn't archive the fic, simple as that. It's sad that those stories disappeared off the net but it wasn't our right.

If a writer wants their stories deleted off the internet, that wish is generally respected. Those stories can't be found online, only maybe traded privately in mail. This enables writers, for example, to file off the serial numbers and re-use a story.

Or you can hide work that might get you in trouble because it's for example pornographic and your current employer might find it and take issue. (Blurring out the name? Doesn't do much good with art... show me ten artworks by ten fanartists I'm familiar with: pretty sure I can sort them all by style. Most artists' styles are distinctive enough for that.)

Just some points. I'm not gonna discuss this further, it annoys me that this even needs to be defended. Double standards.

Date: 2013-02-27 10:00 pm (UTC)
morgandawn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morgandawn
I think I see where you're coming from. To use text as an example, my quoting an excerpt from a story that had been taken offline, or offering a screencap to document the stories existence, or even using a snippet of the text in an art collage =/= fair use without the author's consent. No matter how much (or little) I quote from the story, if the writer demands that the work no longer "exists," we can no longer discuss it or comment on it or offer excerpts in articles or use it in any way. Now we can argue in the context of art that even a low res image is not a snippet but the entire work, but keep in mind that fair use says that I can use as much of the work as needed for my purpose. No point in holding up a few pixels of a painting to try to illustrate the art. So what you're talking about is not fair use, but fannish use. Even when works are pulled from the public view, in most parts of the world, we can continue talking about the art, holding up pictures of the art, and using the art in a myriad transformative ways. And even before the works are pulled, I can use the art or text without the writer's or artist's consent. That is the heart and soul of fair or transformative use and it allows you, as a fan, to continue being a fan creator and a fan consumer. I find it just as ironic that we need to defend fair use in the context of who we are and what we are doing. We, as fans, are not breaking the "law" no matter how much the RIAA and MPAA tries to convince us otherwise.

Date: 2013-02-27 10:04 pm (UTC)
astridv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] astridv
Believe what you must. Fannish use and fair use are two different issues and what I was saying, just to clarify, is that IMO fanlore right now isn't adhering to either, not in all cases.
Edited Date: 2013-02-27 10:07 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-23 09:45 pm (UTC)
ext_3626: (sga - puzzled!john)
From: [identity profile] frogspace.livejournal.com
I'm not sure where you get the idea of whole galleries of images to illustrate a ship but my impression is you're talking about categories which automatically generate a page index and a thumb preview of everything tagged with that category.

If that's what you mean, clicking on the thumb preview should get you to the image file. If it's a piece of art, it should have the image summary template attached and that's where the credit is supposed to go. At the bottom of the image file page you find wikilinks to all the pages where the image is used. On these pages you are supposed to find context and commentary for the image.

The most common use of art on the wiki is that a scan of a zine cover is used on its respective zine page to identify the zine.

The offer of smudging out names is something artists have asked for. Especially for explicit content they created for example thirty years ago when they didn't have to worry about their grandchildren finding out about it.

Date: 2013-02-23 10:56 pm (UTC)
caput_mortuum: (Default)
From: [personal profile] caput_mortuum
Okay, that was a bad example since indeed I mixed the category in, but most artsy articles I looked at are actually accompanied by a gallery of images? Like this one: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Evil!Sam or http://fanlore.org/wiki/Petite_madame
Yeah I've done that (it's the base I judged the database on), I picked a few random images for the detailed view and they all had no link, so obviously that was a bad sample. I've since found others with source links :)
I'm not sure why people in this thread put so much emphasis on the zines when those are clearly not the only images on fanlore, but okay, I'll stop arguing now. Just go on doing what you do.
Edited Date: 2013-02-23 11:03 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-25 10:59 pm (UTC)
elf: Fanlore: IM IN UR WIKI FIXIN UR STUBS (Fanlore Wiki)
From: [personal profile] elf
The responses deal with zines because there are several hundreds of images of zines on the site, and any policy is going to have to take those into account. The site could have "here's a policy for images that are not archived elsewhere on the web, and here's a separate policy for images that are hosted by the artist." However, in ten years, some of those artists may no longer have an online site. Or the policy could be "here's Policy A for images that were originally published on paper, vs Policy B for images originally published digitally."

However, a policy of "artist permission must be sought before posting low-res images" would mean removing hundreds of fanzine covers drawn by artists who are unavailable or deceased. It would mean losing the ability to connect to a huge portion of fannish history.

Any image policy discussion needs to take into account more than just currently active artists with a direct interest in how their works are used and distributed. There's no intent to tell artists that their preferences don't matter, just an attempt to say that policies need to cover circumstances that don't apply to them.

Date: 2013-02-25 11:06 pm (UTC)
elf: Fanlore: IM IN UR WIKI FIXIN UR STUBS (Fanlore Wiki)
From: [personal profile] elf
I'm not sure how the Evil!Sam page is not what was intended by the image policy. There are a handful of images, each of a very different style, showing some of the diverse ways fandom interprets a single trope. It's possible the images aren't sourced/attributed as well as they should be, but wikis almost always have a policy of "information is highest priority; track down citations as possible," with an understanding that information posted without proper citations may be removed.

I would like to know what changes would be necessary to make the page more compliant with the intent of the image policy.

Date: 2013-02-27 03:35 pm (UTC)
elf: Fanlore: IM IN UR WIKI FIXIN UR STUBS (Fanlore Wiki)
From: [personal profile] elf
Makes sense; I know it takes time to sort out policy shifts. I'm not expecting any official answer in a hurry.

Date: 2013-02-27 10:54 am (UTC)
meg_r: photo; close up of two orange tulips (Default)
From: [personal profile] meg_r
I really think at the very least you should respond to the comments in the ao3 thread and post on the fanlore comm, giving a timeframe for when we can expect these changes/discussions to happen. You can't expect people to hunt out your journal when most people have no idea who is even on the wiki committee. It just looks like you are ignoring all these problems and everyone who has a criticism, which reflects very badly on Fanlore and the OTW in general.

Date: 2013-02-27 08:23 pm (UTC)
metanewsmods: Abed wearing goggles (Default)
From: [personal profile] metanewsmods
Hi, can I link this at metanews?

Date: 2013-02-27 10:03 pm (UTC)
morgandawn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morgandawn
oops, sorry tiyire. I'll take a break from the discussion. I totally know how you feel and me having a cold is not helping matters any.

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